after the shooting

[ega]

What are your comments on after action / scene conduct

 

[ATM]

"I want to cooperate and be helpful but will need to speak with my lawyer first."

 

[Bubba]

- Never, ever, ever leave the scene unless your life depends on bugging out.
- Be the first one to call the cops.
- Even if you choose not to lawyer up () don't give your statement until you've had a few hours to come down off the adrenaline.

 

[ega]

describe yourself to the dispatcher- clothes,type and color

 

[RogerB]

call 911 state there's been a shooting, request medical assistance and LE on site asap. Describe what your wearing so they know who called it in when they arrive.

Don't make any statements without a lawyer.

just off the top of my head and my


next....

 

[WinChoke]

If possible, disarm and secure weapon off your body if the scene is secure (in your opinion).

 

[mercop]

People would like to think that they will be able to shut their mouths. I have not found that to be the case. Think about how people run up to the police after traffic accident. They want to get their side across first. When we are under extreme stress we revert back to our childhood and "who broke the cookie jar" and want to talk. They are called excited utterances and admissible in court.

We teach that you should advise the officer that you are not feeling well, sick to your stomach / chest pain...whatever and would like an ambulance. This will both separate you from the scene and give you a chance to collect your thoughts. Investigators will talk to you later.

Most likely you cell phone will be seized, this is normal. Consider the numbers you call post incident before the police arrive. In most places if you call 911 the phone will be locked open and have to be cleared by emergency communications anyway.- George

 

[ega]

I was just wondering what everyones thoughts were I spent 8 yrs as an MP in the marine corps. Im not a leo now but did have to testify while in the corps about a justified shooting. The fella that did the shooting almost hung himself with a playback of 911 tape that had him online with dispatch and overheard talking to a by-stander saying (he f**ked with the wrong guy tonight) just as MERCOP stated do your best to SHUT YOUR MOUTH once it leaves your mouth the next place you will here is in court!!!!!!!!!!!I'll never forget the look on that guys face when that 911 tape played and probably didnt remember saying it

 

[Ness2k]

People would like to think that they will be able to shut their mouths. I have not found that to be the case. Think about how people run up to the police after traffic accident. They want to get their side across first. When we are under extreme stress we revert back to our childhood and "who broke the cookie jar" and want to talk. They are called excited utterances and admissible in court.

We teach that you should advise the officer that you are not feeling well, sick to your stomach / chest pain...whatever and would like an ambulance. This will both separate you from the scene and give you a chance to collect your thoughts. Investigators will talk to you later.

Most likely you cell phone will be seized, this is normal. Consider the numbers you call post incident before the police arrive. In most places if you call 911 the phone will be locked open and have to be cleared by emergency communications anyway.- George

This is 100% what you should do. No arguing about it.

I would holster my weapon, call 911 being sure to describe what I was wearing, and do exactly what mercop said.

 

[esrice]

Most likely you cell phone will be seized, this is normal. Consider the numbers you call post incident before the police arrive. In most places if you call 911 the phone will be locked open and have to be cleared by emergency communications anyway.- George

Interesting. . . .

 

[Beau]

Interesting. . . .

Indeed....

Lawyer.

What happened here?

Lawyer.

We need a statement.

Lawyer.

Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

Not LE bashing but they are not there to help you out. They will not be called to testify in your defense. Say nothing until you've spoken to a lawyer.

 

[Wabatuckian]

"I believe I may be injured. Please transport me to the hospital. I will be happy to cooperate after receiving medical attention."

Most likely will be tranquilized there, and probably will not be questioned for 24-48 hours after medication is given. (This is from a friend, a former LEO, firearms trainer, and partner of Mas Ayoob before he went big. This gent lives in Ohio and knows of what he speaks.)

This will give me plenty of time to get my act together, and get my lawyer.

Chemical interrogation, even if not illegal, would likely be frowned upon in a court of law. The idea is to buy time until the defense lawyer can get things sorted out.

Josh <><

 

[Glock23od]

this might be a stupid question but i have never been in the situation and would like to now what to do i have read all of your comments and it sounds like the number one thing to do is ask for a lawyer right off. but if i used self defense against a bad guy and didn't do any thing wrong because in my mind if i hadn't acted with my weapon i would have been killed then y not tell the cops what happen just wondering because if you just go off saying lawyer to the cops and not trying to help sort what happened could that make them think your trying to hid or cover up what happened just wondering thanks

 

[homeless]

"Hello, 911? My name is (Insert name here)There has been a shooting. I need trama medics and LEO assistance to (Location). The scene is secure at this time. I am wearing (what you are wearing and general discription).

Remember you will encounter a cop first, EMS will not stay around the corner until a cop says it is good to go. Have the weapon holstered and preferably concealed. Make like Jesus with your hands and walk twards the car.

"Thank you for responding to my call officer. My name is (your name). This man attacked me. I think he needs medical attention. I feel ill can I sit down for a moment? Here is my ID and my weapon is located (where yo gat at), I will gladly comply fully after I speak to my lawyer."




IANAL but I would say that is the MOST you should ever say to the police. If you feel the need to say anything else to the guys with the cute broaches just repeatedly thank them for coming so soon.


One more note if you take a bambulance ride be sure to hand off your weapons first, or at least let the Medic know. They do not like finding weapons that they were told were not there. That is a good way to get to play "How big a needle will fit"

 

[GlockRock]

this might be a stupid question but i have never been in the situation and would like to now what to do i have read all of your comments and it sounds like the number one thing to do is ask for a lawyer right off. but if i used self defense against a bad guy and didn't do any thing wrong because in my mind if i hadn't acted with my weapon i would have been killed then y not tell the cops what happen just wondering because if you just go off saying lawyer to the cops and not trying to help sort what happened could that make them think your trying to hid or cover up what happened just wondering thanks

I agree with you, but we seem to be the minority on this board. This discussion has come up before and most suggest to speak to an attorney first, which is their right.

 

[ATM]

If anything I say can and will be used against me, I will never be more innocent than before I opened my mouth. Some people just really want to convince the police on the spot that they were justified and had to do it, give details, etc. The police are not the ones who will be prosecuting or defending you. Attorneys will.

 

[jdhaines]

Over at warriortalk there is a general consensus that it would be more harmful to say nothing at all except that you would like a lawyer. You don't want Diarmid of the mouth, but something along these lines would be more helpful. His point is to get the investigation started on the right line, rather than letting the LEOs guess at what happened. I tend to agree with this logic, but at the least it is another view and another data point. You'll have to make your own decision.

At GOTX, they are discussing the after-event-discourse. In other words, what do you say...or not, after you have whacked an attacker. As expected, the variety of advice is as different as people's choices in guns and ammo. A prevailing attitude is to simply shut up and say nothing under any circumstances. I disagree and here is why -

I have been in a few of these and also investigated quite a few of these. I noted some trends, as well tried to use those trends to my benefits when it was my turn at the plate.

The bad guys will not be "keeping quiet". They will be telling the cops you pulled on them, perhaps create some appearance of racism if they can exploit it, and generally make it look like you are the bad guy. What happened may not be obvious to the cops who come out to investigate.

So picture this scene. Two guys have been, as we used to say, "eye f*cking you", and followed you for some time, maybe yelling stuff at you. Finally, while you did your best to avoid the issue, they pressed the confrontation and attacked with sufficient force to justify a gun solution.

You shoot one of them, wounding him, and the other runs off. You saw the first man drop his pistol in a clump of ivy and the other man throw his knife on a rooftop as he ran away.

You immediately call 911 and give a very cryptic account of what happened..."there has been a shooting...I'm the victim...send help".

In the meantime, one of the assailants...the one who got away, is also calling. His story is a little different. According to him you called them "dirty Norwegians", and pulled your gun on them and shot his buddy. As far as the police know...they got two calls. One a cryptic call, from someone who seemed to be concealing somet6hing, and another reporting what amounts to a racial hate crime.

They arrive on scene and after controlling the event, ask you what happened. What you do now will have a bearing on the rest of your life.

The guys who advocate saying nothing will not be able to point to the two weapons which were discarded...and which will disappear as soon as the scene is cleared. The police may not even look for them since no one told them they were in existence. No one will tell them you are a good guy who was a victim of an attempted robbery, as the ONLY info paints you as some KKK wannabe.

Sure...you'll have a lawyer...but all of the evidence the police may have collected will no longer be available, and the investigation will not have been an even and equal one, but rather one where you alone are the suspect.

See the point??

Is it hard to control your mouth? Yes it is. But no harder than to control your trigger finger, your desire to drink to excess, or to control the vertical displacement of your zipper. As the Nike commercial said....Just Do It.

It, like many other things, can be trained and developed. If you ignore it, it will never be developed.

Think in these terms...you train gun handling and shooting skills to make them reflexive in the most stressful event someone is ever likely to face....and we tend to do fine. The guys who never train...thinking they will "rise to the occasion" usually fail. To say, "I will simply say nothing", is in that same line of thinking is it not?

I agree that saying nothing is a good default, but the default is not always a good idea.

What I have done with success is this. I give a limited statement and them excuse myself from any further questions until my mouthpiece arrives.

Anything I say focuses on what the bad guy(s) have done and not on what I may have done. Something like this -

"Officer. I am glad you are here. Thank God.

I am a good guy. I was minding my own business on my way home when those two guys attacked me.

The one in the blue shirt had a knife. He threw it up there on the roof as he ran away. there should be some blood on it from my arm when I blocked his attempt to stab me.

The guy on the gurney was armed with a pistol. He dropped it right there in that pile of ivy when he fell.

I was terrified. Boy am I glad you guys are here.

Listen...I am still a little shaken up. I want to cooperate with you guys. This has never happened to me (or this hasn't happened in a while). I have heard stories of good guys getting sued for saying too much. My attorney is on his way and as soon as he arrives I will be happy to give a statement with him there. Until then, I think I need to sit down and calm my blood pressure."

At that point things are no longer in your control but you have set the investigation on the proper course, and the truth will be determined instead of being overlooked.

Link to the sticky with everyone's responses.

 

[dross]

I'd love for some criminal attorneys to speak up. Also, I know Ayoob covers this in some of his classes. I agree you have to say something, but I also have heard and read many accounts of how things are taken out of context. LEOs, what would you tell your family member if they asked you what to do in that situation?

 

[redneckmedic]

Most likely will be tranquilized there, and probably will not be questioned for 24-48 hours after medication is given.

What world does you friend live in? I have been a paramedic for almost 10 yrs and I have never tranquilized someone. This is just Hollywood! We use what is called RSI (rapid sequence intubation) for very, very serious medical/trauma incidents (not drama). I have been on many, many shootings; your are packaged (tossed on a cot), assessed for life threating injuries, and then while being treated the scene detectives (if not life threating) try there damnest to get a statement from you. Then they follow you to the hospital and do the same there!

(This is from a friend, a former LEO, firearms trainer, and partner of Mas Ayoob before he went big. This gent lives in Ohio and knows of what he speaks.)

This will give me plenty of time to get my act together, and get my lawyer.

Josh <><

Don't worry about buying time for council...just say your not speaking until you have a representitive! Done deal!

And don't forget to add every 5 secs. one the phone and when everyone arrives;...

"I am (was) afraid for my life!"
"I am (was) afraid for my life!"
"I am (was) afraid for my life!"
"I am (was) afraid for my life!"
"I am (was) afraid for my life!"

-Medic

 

[Wabatuckian]

Medic,

He's over in Ohio. The laws may be different there.

Guess he was a homicide detective before being injured in the line, and if the shooter was incoherent and puking on shoes, they would take him to the hospital for evaluation and possible tranquilizers.

Policy dictated that they could then not be questioned for 24 hours (at least) afterward.

My statement was part question, which you answered handily: Would it be this way in Indiana?

This was also back in the '80s and I expected policy would have changed.

Josh <><