About came unglued

[pudly]

HE SEES THROUGH ME!

It's that streak-free shine that gave you away.

 

[rhino]

It's that streak-free shine that gave you away.

Gets the birds on the sliding door every time.

 

[ATM]

Look, if old busted "rule #1" had been successful, we wouldn't even be discussing it, would we?

It wasn't. Attempts to reword it just make it an even more dangerous implication.

Let it go, folks. Let it slip from history as the well-intended failure it was.

Safe gun handling has long since been corrected with real safe gun handling rules, very simple rules which never fail, rules without qualifiers, rules for handling guns.

Let your loaded/unloaded mental exercises be disconnected from safe gun handling rules once and for all. The consequence of maintaining that connection is just too severe.

One of these things is not like the others - so simple, even an engineer should be able to figure it out.

 

[HoughMade]

Anyhoo,

Who's this hot gun store chick I've heard so much about? We still talking about her? I sure was surprised to hear that any female, let alone blonde, could master the basics of safe gun handling.

 

[ATM]

...I am not aware of anyone becoming the victim of an ND or AD (more terminology of convenience, eh) or victimizing another while obeying all four of Jeff Cooper's 'suggestions' but I'm aware of plenty of people shot with 'unloaded' firearms.
...

I'll just fix this part for ya.

I am not aware of anyone becoming the victim of an ND or AD or victimizing another while obeying [STRIKE]all four of Jeff Cooper's 'suggestions'[/STRIKE] the three rules that were added, or similarly, the three NRA safe gun handling rules, but I'm aware of plenty of people shot with 'unloaded' firearms after they read Coopers original numero uno and promptly dismissed everything that followed, "cuz it aint low-ded".

 

[Bill of Rights]

ATM has my friendship and my respect. That said, we do not agree on all things. He OCs... if not always, then at least it's fair to say that for him to NOT OC is a conscious decision. He doesn't agree that Rule #1 is valid as a rule equivalent to #2, 3, and 4. I follow it and teach it.

At the end of the day, it's a simple discussion, if even a discussion at all. Unless I'm looking at the chamber (from the BACK, thankyouverymuch!) and can see it empty, there is a round in it as far as I'm concerned. If I'm checking a gun, I'll usually hold it up until I see light down the barrel and in the chamber. As long as it's in my hand after that, I can safely guarantee that it is or is not actually loaded.

Y'know what, though? Even if it has been verified safe, and for that matter, unless I have a boresnake or similar through the chamber and out the muzzle, I'm still not pointing it at something I don't want holes in. I'm still keeping my finger off the trigger, and I'm aware of where it's pointed and what's behind where it's pointed.

I'm not going to raise my voice in the discussion; there's no need. If the subject even comes up for discussion, it's just a point of conversation. How we practice our firearms handling is of far greater importance. To my knowledge, neither of us has caused a firearms-related injury due to the presence or absence of a live round in the chamber of one of our guns.

Anything beyond that is just window-dressing.

Blessings,
Bill

Look, if old busted "rule #1" had been successful, we wouldn't even be discussing it, would we?

It wasn't. Attempts to reword it just make it an even more dangerous implication.

Let it go, folks. Let it slip from history as the well-intended failure it was.

Safe gun handling has long since been corrected with real safe gun handling rules, very simple rules which never fail, rules without qualifiers, rules for handling guns.

Let your loaded/unloaded mental exercises be disconnected from safe gun handling rules once and for all. The consequence of maintaining that connection is just too severe.

One of these things is not like the others - so simple, even an engineer should be able to figure it out.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Anyhoo,

Who's this hot gun store chick I've heard so much about? We still talking about her? I sure was surprised to hear that any female, let alone blonde, could master the basics of safe gun handling.

<== Buffy is enthusiastic about your lack of purple.

 

[ATM]

...Anything beyond that is just window-dressing.

Blessings,
Bill

Thanks, Bill, but my disagreement on this point, specifically for those who teach others safe gun handling, is not merely aesthetic (or semantics as some others like to claim).

No, the failure of this bad implication is that it has an associated body count.

 

[BE Mike]

I always liked the procedure of: 1. Before handing another a gun, open the action, and VISUALLY check for empty. 2. When receiving a gun from another, open the action (if not already open) and visually check for empty. A lot of times, dangerous gun handling comes when something unusual happens, as in the recent Florida incident (if you get a piece of hot brass down your shirt...tough it out). I've seen people lose their balance or have a jam and lose control of the muzzle, sometimes pointing it at people with their finger on the trigger. When that different something happens, I like to slow things down and make sure that I have my finger off the trigger, complete muzzle awareness and then unload the gun, if possible.

 

[Gun Collector]

About 18-months ago, I stopped in a LGS that I frequent several times a year. As I was looking at the goodies, I noticed 2 young guys at the counter handling a NIB Taurus. Judging the way they were handling the gun, neither had any business owning a firearm. I noticed the shop owner behind the counter apparently running the 4473 on the gentleman purchasing the Taurus.

A few minutes later, the purchaser picks up the gun and with his right arm extended, starts waving and pointing the gun at random in what I would call the "gang style posture". He then proceeded to point the gun directly at me while telling his buddy, "Check this out".

Now I'm a pretty calm guy but this didn't set well with me for obvious reasons. I politely but firmly asked the young guy to "refrain from pointing the gun in my direction". The guy didn't like my request and responded with "What's your problem old man? It aen't loaded". I explained to him that a gun is always presumed to be loaded and should never be pointed at anyone. Guy didn't like my comment but did put the gun back in the box.

LGS owner saw the whole thing and started hustling to get the guy out of the store. After he left, I ripped on the LGS owner a new one. Owner stated he passed the 4473 and he couldn't stop him from purchasing the Taurus. I told the owner I can stop purchasing from his store and walked out. Never have been back and never will.

 

[churchmouse]

About 18-months ago, I stopped in a LGS that I frequent several times a year. As I was looking at the goodies, I noticed 2 young guys at the counter handling a NIB Taurus. Judging the way they were handling the gun, neither had any business owning a firearm. I noticed the shop owner behind the counter apparently running the 4473 on the gentleman purchasing the Taurus.

A few minutes later, the purchaser picks up the gun and with his right arm extended, starts waving and pointing the gun at random in what I would call the "gang style posture". He then proceeded to point the gun directly at me while telling his buddy, "Check this out".

Now I'm a pretty calm guy but this didn't set well with me for obvious reasons. I politely but firmly asked the young guy to "refrain from pointing the gun in my direction". The guy didn't like my request and responded with "What's your problem old man? It aen't loaded". I explained to him that a gun is always presumed to be loaded and should never be pointed at anyone. Guy didn't like my comment but did put the gun back in the box.

LGS owner saw the whole thing and started hustling to get the guy out of the store. After he left, I ripped on the LGS owner a new one. Owner stated he passed the 4473 and he couldn't stop him from purchasing the Taurus. I told the owner I can stop purchasing from his store and walked out. Never have been back and never will.

All about the Benjamin's.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Where is the picture of JetGirl's jar full of live rounds found in new guns in the store that theoretically have never been loaded, nor should have been, when you need it?

Not new guns. Guns customers carried into the store loaded but "unloaded".

 

[BugI02]

Rule of argumentation: The smaller the difference in positions, the more emphatically people will argue the point.

Lolz. There is a similar rule about disputes in academia. To wit, that the competition is only so vicious because the rewards are so small

 

[deanald2pt0]

I've been in Point Blank Carmel twice in the last week and a half. Booth times to go shoot with a friend. The lack of awareness behind the counter kind of bothered me.

First time, a lady behind the rental counter took a returned rental, pointed it down about 45 degrees and pulled the trigger to drop the hammer. The problem I had, was my buddy and I were standing directly on the other side of the counter where she pointed it. She just turned, pointed, pulled the trigger, and went back to what she was doing.

Second time, guy behind be rental counter swept 1/2 the counter with the AR he was getting down off the rack. He did manage to get it pointed in a safer direction before handing it to the guy who was renting it (didn't really make me fell any better).

Oh, and when I was done shooting and leaving the range there was some idiot outside of his lane, at one of the little tables, with his pistol out checking to make sure it was clear (or something). That stuff needs to be done on the firing line, with your pistol pointed down range, not 180 degrees the opposite direction pointed at the window out into the store.

It's a nice place, but I haven't been impressed with some of the firearm handling skills there. But of course, my friends want to go back, I'm going to introduce them to MCF&G.

 

[churchmouse]

I've been in Point Blank Carmel twice in the last week and a half. Booth times to go shoot with a friend. The lack of awareness behind the counter kind of bothered me.

First time, a lady behind the rental counter took a returned rental, pointed it down about 45 degrees and pulled the trigger to drop the hammer. The problem I had, was my buddy and I were standing directly on the other side of the counter where she pointed it. She just turned, pointed, pulled the trigger, and went back to what she was doing.

Second time, guy behind be rental counter swept 1/2 the counter with the AR he was getting down off the rack. He did manage to get it pointed in a safer direction before handing it to the guy who was renting it (didn't really make me fell any better).

Oh, and when I was done shooting and leaving the range there was some idiot outside of his lane, at one of the little tables, with his pistol out checking to make sure it was clear (or something). That stuff needs to be done on the firing line, with your pistol pointed down range, not 180 degrees the opposite direction pointed at the window out into the store.

It's a nice place, but I haven't been impressed with some of the firearm handling skills there. But of course, my friends want to go back, I'm going to introduce them to MCF&G.

You will get swept there as well.

 

[maansmit]

I've been in Point Blank Carmel twice in the last week and a half. Booth times to go shoot with a friend. The lack of awareness behind the counter kind of bothered me.

First time, a lady behind the rental counter took a returned rental, pointed it down about 45 degrees and pulled the trigger to drop the hammer. The problem I had, was my buddy and I were standing directly on the other side of the counter where she pointed it. She just turned, pointed, pulled the trigger, and went back to what she was doing.

Second time, guy behind be rental counter swept 1/2 the counter with the AR he was getting down off the rack. He did manage to get it pointed in a safer direction before handing it to the guy who was renting it (didn't really make me fell any better).

Oh, and when I was done shooting and leaving the range there was some idiot outside of his lane, at one of the little tables, with his pistol out checking to make sure it was clear (or something). That stuff needs to be done on the firing line, with your pistol pointed down range, not 180 degrees the opposite direction pointed at the window out into the store.

It's a nice place, but I haven't been impressed with some of the firearm handling skills there. But of course, my friends want to go back, I'm going to introduce them to MCF&G.

This is one of the many reasons I much prefer shooting at a private range.

 

[BugI02]

Look, if old busted "rule #1" had been successful, we wouldn't even be discussing it, would we?

It wasn't. Attempts to reword it just make it an even more dangerous implication.

Let it go, folks. Let it slip from history as the well-intended failure it was.

Safe gun handling has long since been corrected with real safe gun handling rules, very simple rules which never fail, rules without qualifiers, rules for handling guns.

Let your loaded/unloaded mental exercises be disconnected from safe gun handling rules once and for all. The consequence of maintaining that connection is just too severe.

One of these things is not like the others - so simple, even an engineer should be able to figure it out.

It seems we have arrived at 'agree to disagree' Following is Rule 3 on safe gun handling from Education and Training|NRA Gun Safety Rules


"ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does."

One wonders - if a gun can be in an 'unloaded' state, why the NRA instructs us to always clear the weapon. Sounds a lot like advocating the common sense actions triggered by Col. Coopers 1st rule without wanting to acknowledge it (now who does that remind me of ... hmmm). Perhaps there was a copyright/intellectual property problem, eh

But beyond the argument over minutae, I hope you are not advocating in favor of your 'right' to handle firearms, in a way I might find irresponsible, where that 'right' intersects me and mine.
I will never acquiesce to anyone pointing firearms carelessly at me or my loved ones. My definition of careless holds sway when that happens, and we will pretty quickly be 'discussing' conversion of potential energy to kinetic energy, leverage and mechanical advantage in pantomime

Like Tom Petty said, "you can believe what you want to believe" just be careful putting those beliefs into effect where others might object. I would think that good manners would encourage us all to act in what we reasonably expect to be the least objectionable way, especially with a gun in our hands

 

[BE Mike]

We all started out as newbies at one point. Today, most new gun buyers weren't given basic instructions from someone they know, often a relative, as many of us lucky folks. They go at it cold and have no inkling of gun handling except what they got in the movies, tv or video games. Maybe instead of criticizing the unwashed, we should find a solution to the problem, because it isn't likely to get any better.

 

[pudly]

We all started out as newbies at one point. Today, most new gun buyers weren't given basic instructions from someone they know, often a relative, as many of us lucky folks. They go at it cold and have no inkling of gun handling except what they got in the movies, tv or video games. Maybe instead of criticizing the unwashed, we should find a solution to the problem, because it isn't likely to get any better.

You forgot the "I've been shooting all my life" crowd.

 

[TangoSierraEcho]

About 18-months ago, I stopped in a LGS that I frequent several times a year. As I was looking at the goodies, I noticed 2 young guys at the counter handling a NIB Taurus. Judging the way they were handling the gun, neither had any business owning a firearm. I noticed the shop owner behind the counter apparently running the 4473 on the gentleman purchasing the Taurus.

A few minutes later, the purchaser picks up the gun and with his right arm extended, starts waving and pointing the gun at random in what I would call the "gang style posture". He then proceeded to point the gun directly at me while telling his buddy, "Check this out".

Now I'm a pretty calm guy but this didn't set well with me for obvious reasons. I politely but firmly asked the young guy to "refrain from pointing the gun in my direction". The guy didn't like my request and responded with "What's your problem old man? It aen't loaded". I explained to him that a gun is always presumed to be loaded and should never be pointed at anyone. Guy didn't like my comment but did put the gun back in the box.

LGS owner saw the whole thing and started hustling to get the guy out of the store. After he left, I ripped on the LGS owner a new one. Owner stated he passed the 4473 and he couldn't stop him from purchasing the Taurus. I told the owner I can stop purchasing from his store and walked out. Never have been back and never will.

I'm not sure which is worse, the fact that the buyer doesn't demonstrate safe gun handling or that the shop owner was content to sell a gun to a person who has a clear disregard for safety. Where does the responsibility begin? Is it the bartenders job to manage how much you drink? I would say no but a good bartender can cut you off when it appears you can't handle it or that you could be a danger to yourself right? So why isn't this practiced when guns are sold? Why sell a gun to an immature young man that clearly isn't ready for the responsibility associated with owning a gun (Taurus or otherwise). Why doesn't the store clerk, after repeated attempts to get that guy to stop pointing the shotgun at people, just come around the counter, take the gun and escort this person out the door? Is it really all about the money?

I would never want to restrict a person's right to own a gun but what is more important, safety or making a dollar?