9mm Reload help - Rant

[mjrducky]

I'm driving myself crazy here with trying to get a reload that works for me in my 9MM taurus slim.

I've reloaded 380, 38 spl, 40, 45 with one or two trips to the range and I was happy with 100% success.

For some reason I can not get my 9MM loads 100%.
I'm loading CCI Mag SPP 124 gr FMJ with titegroup powder. I've used anywhere from 4.0 to 4.2 grains and set the COL at 1.35 and also 1.1

No matter where I set it I do not get 100% out of 100 round test.
I get maybe 5-7 FTF and a one FTE out of each 100 I test as an average.

Now I thought maybe It was me limp wristing or maybe it was the gun soft strike.

Well to test that theory I've shot hundreds of rounds of factory ammo with zero failures. If I load the mag with say two reloads, then one factory, etc.. I get no failures. But if I go all reloads.. Maybe one FTF every other magazine. Its not the same magazine that does it each time, there is a clear strike on the reload. If I load the unfired round a second time it fires so ammo is good. Now I like the load it has the same recoil as the factory and I'll have to say my aim is getting terrific after shooting so much. LOL I usually still have one round that still won't fire after about 3 attempts and I just bring it home.

Just to mention someone might think hard primer and because there the same primers I've used in all my SPP loads with no issues and its happening each trip I have rulled that out. I mean its not 100% impossible but I dont think thats it.

Its making me crazy. LOL

My thoughts are I think maybe either a different gun or someone try my reloads (which I know we shouldnt do) or someone using titegroup let me shoot 100 of your reloads, I'll pay for them of course just to compare what your load is and how it works.

 

[IndyGunworks]

i see you are using magnum primers... they typically have a slightly harder cup.. maybe your firing pin doesnt have enough a$$ to set them off uniformly.... have you tried standard SPP?

i know you say you always use these but maybe something is differant with YOUR specific gun.

ill trade you 50 of my reloads for 50 of yours just to help diagnose the problem if you would like

 

[mjrducky]

i see you are using magnum primers... they typically have a slightly harder cup.. maybe your firing pin doesnt have enough a$$ to set them off uniformly.... have you tried standard SPP?

i know you say you always use these but maybe something is differant with YOUR specific gun.

ill trade you 50 of my reloads for 50 of yours just to help diagnose the problem if you would like

I've considered that and its about the only thing I can think of. Thats why I thought trying a second gun or another person reloads would help decide the missing link. I do have some magtech spp that are not magnum so I think I will try that first to rule it out. If it doesn't work I'll PM you on that offer to see.

 

[boman]

You've addressed hard primers---my first thought---are they the same lot number---shouldn't make a dif but could. How old are the primers and how have they been stored-just another thought-again probably not an issue.

What about the brass? could the primer pocket be slightly deeper than brass you have used previously. How uniform is the brass length?---remember 9mm headspaces on the casemouth. If you rule the primers and the brass out then it's probably a light strike/gun related.

 

[Litlratt]

For troubleshooting purposes, I would chamber check and primer check (set on piece of glass) each round prior to going to the range.

 

[Glockman1989]

4 grains of powder seems awfully low. What brand of powder is it?

 

[kludge]

Take the barrel out of your gun and drop a couple dozen of your rounds in your chamber and try to see where things are hanging up. If it's not that start looking at the magazine and then move on to see how they are feeding - some bullet shapes just don't work with some guns. FTF and FTE can also be caused by improper case sizing as well as excessive OAL. If the round didn't feed at 1.1" OAL I would start looking at wheter the sizing die is properly adjusted. Also you may have too much mouth flare that isn't getting ironed out later in the process. Perhaps a Lee factory crimp die would help.

 

[rvb]

first... [pet peeve of mine]... FTF = Failure to Fire or Feed? Assume the former in context. FTE = failure to extract or eject? Those abreviations drive me bat-s*t crazy. need to be specific.

I agree w hard primers. you say you've always used the magnum primers, but obviously not in this 9mm gun. try some non mag and most likely they'll light off 100%.

powder load sounds about right for TG under 124s, maybe a bit light. quick look at hodgdon.com shows two different 125gr loads, one where 4.0 is max and one where it's min.... figures.

1.350 oal is quite long... 1.100-1.150 usually about right for 9mm.

the extraction/ejection problem could be a function of how hot your load is. you need to chrono to properly know your load. if the 4.0 gr is in fact too light it could be short stroking the slide. if too hot it could be causing the slide to cycle to fast to time properly. do the rounds "feel" similar to factory 124s? (TG is a fast powder, so it's going to be hard to compare honestly... need a chrono).

The mag primers will mask pressure signs so if you think the "FTE" issues are due to the load being a little week, work carefully [cough -chrono- cough]

-rvb

 

[mjrducky]

Sorry guys the FTF is Failure to Fire and FTE is Fail to Eject.

They all feed just fine.

I'm going to try the Magtech primers within the next few days and will provide an update to see how it goes.

Thanks all for just letting me talk about it. It helps hearing others come to the same conclusions.

 

[rvb]

Sorry guys the FTF is Failure to Fire and FTE is Fail to Eject.

ok, ejection problem is what I expected. extraction problem is less likely an ammo problem, but can happen w/ WAY too hot a load (or bad case rims). If the cases are being extracted but just not clearing the chamber before the slide closes (either jamming between breech and hood or remaining in chamber), then most likely the load is a little weak and/or recoil spring a little strong for the load. (again, a chrono would help you determine if you should be bumping up the charge).

 

[kludge]

Sorry guys the FTF is Failure to Fire and FTE is Fail to Eject.

Ahah! Now disregard me previous post, and do what rvb said three posts up.

 

[drgnrobo]

How old is the powder & how is it stored ? Sometimes certain powders dont burn fast enough to have the proper detonation & slows the timing down on the slide & not eject properly . Already mentioned was the hard primers may be causing the problem or the firing pin isnt striking hard enough.Try cleaning the firing pin hole & clean inside the breech as best you can & lightly oil all the parts & see if that helps

 

[mjrducky]

UPDATE

I loaded 200 rounds: Titegroup 4.2 gr - 124 gr FMJ bullets - COL at 1.1
this time I used Magtech SPP instead of the CCI SPPM

Basically same results.

Here is a record of my failures
round 98 Failure to Fire (FTF)
122 FTF
147 FTE (Fail to Eject) (it was still half in the barrel each FTE - I can open the slide and it just falls out - no effert required on my part)
152 FTF
160 FTF
162 FTE - no effert to remove just falls out
178 FTF

Now I'm not to worried about the FTE this is easy to solve in my mind.
And I believe I may have had a limp wrist on some of those FTF because I was not concentrating on the shot as much as I should have. I also wonder if its possible that the gun can get to hot and have an effect.

The FTF's were then reloaded into the gun and 2 of the four fired the second time around.

Now Its either A the gun. Again fires factory loads 100% of the time.

B it was to dirty after 100 rounds to be dependable enough to fire 100% of the time.

C something wrong with the load still.

So my next thought will be to find a buddys 9MM and try it with the same reloads.

 

[SamW]

There's no doubt in my mind you have an ammo/gun relationship problem if factory ammo is 100% reliable.

What is the gun model? How many rounds through it? Factory springs? Ever pierce a primer?

What are you using to seat primers? Are primer pockets clean?

Either hard primers or primers not fully seated could cause the round to fail. The hammer blow is sometimes enough to re-seat them and hence they will go off the next time around.

Primer storage conditions? Age?

 

[mjrducky]

There's no doubt in my mind you have an ammo/gun relationship problem if factory ammo is 100% reliable.

What is the gun model? How many rounds through it? Factory springs? Ever pierce a primer?

What are you using to seat primers? Are primer pockets clean?

Either hard primers or primers not fully seated could cause the round to fail. The hammer blow is sometimes enough to re-seat them and hence they will go off the next time around.

Primer storage conditions? Age?

The gun is a Taurus 709 Slim 3 months old has about 1200 rounds through it total. Everything is factory still and well in good shape since its new.
Brass is new Winchester and yes pockets are clean and primers seat flush I always double check. Primers used have been CCI and Magtechs both less then 2 months old and stored in Ammo can. Same goes for powder.

It's the same primer and powder I use on my 40, 380, and 38 spcl with 0 hiccups. Why the factory ammo seems to work again is either its cleaner then tightgroup or off top of my head I think its 115 gr vs the 124 Im shooting....... hmmm... it might be something to consider.

But I'm trying to locate another 9MM to shoot and if that works then I get a new gun LOL. Which isnt so bad I just wasted two months trying to figure this out he he.

 

[rvb]

primers seat flush

I'm probably taking you too literal, but just to cover all bases....
you want the primers seated fully, not just flush. Fully seated is usually a couple thousandths below flush.

-rvb

 

[kludge]

Yup. After reading your latest results that's the first thing that came to mind - make sure the primers are seated fully - otherwise the energy from the firing pin will end up seating primers instead of setting them off.

Have you inspected the primers on the ones the FTF? If you put the same rounds back into the chamber do they fire the second try? That's one indications that the primers are not fully seated.

 

[SamW]

Do you stick your reloads in a case gauge? Is it possible you're over-sizing or over/under crimping?

 

[Stimp]

Aside from the mag primers??? why not using standard primers for the 9mm...

any ways. When you say the FTF.. but fires on the second time leads me to believe the primers are not fully set into the cartridge when fired. The first hammer strike will fully seat the primer then the second strike will fire the primer... Have had that happen to me before. Next time you prime assure they are fully seated then test.. If it fixes the problem.. great! If not, then you know one more thing that is not causing the problem. :-)

 

[mjrducky]

The primers not seating all the way is a possiblity. I mean anything is possible at this point. I think I have another 9MM lined up this weekend to try and will triple check the primers to be sure there seated. I always do but its possible just a few are not seated enough. Yes most fire the second time but still had two this last time that did not.

So sunday night will have a new update and fingers crossed.

Thanks all for the input.