.40 cal gun owners get letters in Weleetka - Oklahoma

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  • Fenway

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    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...1_hOSBIa443762
    Gun owners got letters

    By MANNY GAMALLO World Staff Writer
    8/20/2008
    Last Modified: 8/20/2008 2:20 AM

    OSBI agents went to gun dealers and pawnshops to create a list of .40-caliber Glock owners.


    WELEETKA — Authorities working to narrow their leads in the June 8 shooting deaths of two girls used old-fashioned legwork to come up with a list of area gun owners with .40-caliber pistols, one of two weapons used in the slayings.

    Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents knew the caliber of the guns used in the killings, so they merely checked with area gun dealers and pawnshops to determine who had bought or recently pawned .40-caliber Glocks.

    "It's a typical procedure of any investigation" involving a gun, according to Jessica Brown, spokeswoman for the OSBI.

    That time-consuming procedure yielded the OSBI the names of more than 60 owners of .40-caliber guns in the Weleetka area.

    Consequently, the OSBI sent letters to all those gun owners, asking them to voluntarily submit their weapons for test firings over the weekend at the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah.

    About 40 of those gun owners showed up on Saturday and Sunday, and their weapons were fired once or twice and then returned to them.

    The fired bullets and shell casings, meanwhile, were sent to
    a crime lab for analysis to determine if any of them match those used in the slayings of Skyla Jade Whitaker, 11, and Taylor Paschal-Placker, 13.

    Brown said about five of the gun owners no longer owned the weapons, but they provided the names of the new owners.

    The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings.

    "They can have any number of reasons" for not volunteering, Brown said. "They could be against it, they could be anti-government, or they eventually may want to help."

    Because the test firing of the weapons is voluntary, Brown said there isn't any constitutional violations involved.

    "It's a process of elimination," she said, noting that the tested weapons may have been loaned out by the owners or someone else may have had access to the guns.

    On Monday, when the OSBI announced that it had test-fired weapons, it stated in its press release that it had sent letters to the "registered gun owners."

    That prompted concern Tuesday among many in the public, who noted that Oklahoma does not have a gun-registry law nor a central database of gun owners.

    Tom Harris, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Tulsa, confirmed that.

    According to Harris, most states, including Oklahoma, and the federal government do not have lists of registered gun owners.

    He said the only way to get a listing of gun owners is by canvassing gun dealers or pawnshops individually to find out who bought weapons — as the OSBI did.

    Harris said gun dealers — "federal firearms licensees" — have to fill out ATF form 4473 whenever a weapon is purchased. The form lists the buyer, the address and other pertinent information.

    They also have to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) to determine whether the prospective buyer can legally purchase a weapon.

    Harris said the 4473 forms stay with the gun dealers and are not submitted to any government agency. They are, however, available to law enforcement.

    If a gun dealer goes out of business, the 4473 forms are stored in an ATF warehouse, he said.

    Although the OSBI made public that a .40-caliber weapon was used in the slayings, it is not identifying the caliber of the other gun used.

    Brown would not say whether voluntary test firings would be held for the other weapon.

    Authorities believe the killers are from the Weleetka area, given the remote location of the girls' slayings.

    They said the killers had to be familiar with the area — N. 3890 Road (County Line Road) north of Coleman Road, about four miles northeast of Weleetka.

    Skyla was visiting Taylor at her home when they decided to go for a walk that Sunday afternoon.

    They walked north from Taylor's home along County Line Road to the Bad Creek bridge, a half-mile away.

    Investigators said the two had made it to the bridge and were returning to Taylor's home when they were gunned down.

    Their bodies were found in a shallow roadside ditch, less than 1,000 feet from the Placker home. They were found about 30 minutes after they had left for the walk.

    Autopsy reports on the girls showed they had been shot a total of 13 times.

    Skyla, the youngest, was shot eight times, and she suffered the most .40-caliber bullet wounds.

    Authorities noted that each of the girls was shot with two weapons.

    The medical examiner recovered spent bullets from their bodies and described them as small- and medium-sized.


    Manny Gamallo 581-8386
    manny.gamallo@tulsaworld.com
     

    Cwood

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    Sounds like a colossal waste of time and resources. It is very sad that these two young girls were killed. But do they honestly believe that the shooter is going to voluntarily show up to the courthouse to have his weapon test fired? To me this sounds like it was a publicity stunt more then good ole fashion police work.
     

    turnandshoot4

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    "They could be against it, they could be anti-government........"
    How can he make this statement? That is crazy. Anti-government? How about people couldn't come in? Had to work? This shouldn't be one of the first statements. I agree, sounds like a publicity stunt.
     

    sparkyfender

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    The only two .40 caliber guns that I KNOW didn't murder those poor young girls are the two that belong to me............

    So, no; I wouldn't volunteer to have them tested. It would be a waste of time. I don't murder children, I don't murder anyone..............

    Look somewhere else.
     

    MilitaryArms

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    Let's see... I kill a couple of people with a firearm then I get a letter in the mail asking me to show up with my .40 (that I used in the crime) and freely submit to a ballistics check.

    Yeah. They're really fishing there... fishing for a complete moron of a killer.

    But criminals have done dumber things I suppose.
     

    haldir

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    Anyone want to give me odds that once they get all but a couple to voluntarily allow their guns to be tested that they find some reason to seize those remaining guns for testing.
     

    cosermann

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    Isn't the statistic something like only 1-2% of guns used in crime are actually registered to the one who committed the crime? Most times they have been resold, stolen, etc. If so, then there's a 98% chance this won't help much. The cost/benefit from a crime solving perspective is pretty bad.

    Actually, it's a good example of why there should be a relatively short retention period on form 4473's and bound book entries after which they may be destroyed. Sure, the gov't isn't supposed to have a "registry", but all the data is habored there in the paperwork and can easily be made into a "registry" in the future or on an ad hoc basis as in this case.

    So, if the forms/records have served their ostensible purpose in qualifying legitimate buyers (and I'm granting that this is valid for the sake of argument) and there's a 98% chance they're worthless for crime solving work, then they should be securely destroyed. There's no reason to keep them.
     
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    DaveD

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    Remember now...."there is no such thing as a gun registry", :dunno: that's why law enforcement was able to put together a list of who owns what with a little "leg work".
     

    melensdad

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    Remember now...."there is no such thing as a gun registry", :dunno: that's why law enforcement was able to put together a list of who owns what with a little "leg work".

    Realistically this is not a practical thing for LEO to do with an 'old' cartridge like the 45acp or the 9mm since the LEO would have to dig through literally 100 years of records. While the 40S&W is really a brand new cartridge in the scheme of things, it also is not very popular (although it is clearly growing rapidly in popularity). So the LEOs can check records for the past year or so looking for 40 caliber pistols and come up with a reasonably small list.

    What I want to know is for those guns that were test fired, what happens to the bullets and cases after the guns were 'cleared' of criminal activity? I'm guessing those are now stored in some crime lab and tied to the gun of the owner as some form of de-fact-o ballistic registration!

    Seems to me any honest gun owner would be happy to have his gun tested as a sign of being an honest gun owner, unfortunately by being that cooperative and honest citizen you have just ballistically 'registered' your gun!
     

    DaveD

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    melensdad

    Good point about the amount of "leg work" required to develop a list, but the bottom line is it can still be done.

    Seems to me any honest gun owner would be happy to have his gun tested as a sign of being an honest gun owner, unfortunately by being that cooperative and honest citizen you have just ballistically 'registered' your gun!

    That's where they get us! Just because we have nothing to hide we cooperate. Puts us in an "interesting" position doesn't it?
     

    melensdad

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    melensdad

    Good point about the amount of "leg work" required to develop a list, but the bottom line is it can still be done.
    Yes and no. The older caliber guns are often likely to be handed down from generation to generation. They are also likely to be sold in private sales. They are also so darn common that it is very likely that a substantial number of people will have moved into the area from other states or other regions and bring these caliber guns with them.



    That's where they get us! Just because we have nothing to hide we cooperate. Puts us in an "interesting" position doesn't it?
    Nope. We should just be honest. We should tell the police that we respectfully decline based on the fact that we know our guns were not used and we don't want to waste the taxpayers money testing guns that don't need to be tested.
     

    haldir

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    I guess if I thought that by eliminating me it would help law enforcement to hone in on the MF SOB that killed those 2 little babies I would do anything I could to help them.
     

    picwik

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    This whole concept just scares the hell out of me. Just look at how many guns are sold or traded on any given day. I'm a police Officer and I know this for what it is. A publicity stunt to give the general public a warm fuzzy that they are dilligently working on a case that is not going anywhere fast enough. I agree that the guilty party wouldn't come anywhere near the testing facility.
     

    melensdad

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    Just another thought, but I do not believe any State or Local official can view, or ask for the information contained on any Federal Form 4473 without first going through the ATFE. Doesn't the ATF have to do the request and, if I understand it correctly, don't they actually quite a few restrictions on how the records can be accessed?
     

    cce1302

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    Back down south
    Guy: "Yes, I have an XD 40. You can test it."
    Cop: "But that's not the factory barrel. It's an EFK barrel."
    Guy: "the factory barrel fell into a lake so I had to replace it yesterday. Let me know how that ballistics test works out for ya."
     

    melensdad

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    Silly question, but if you ran some sandpaper down the inside of your barrel would it dramatically change the 'fingerprint' of the barrel?

    If so, which is what I suspect, then why wouldn't the bad guy simply scratch up the inside of his barrel, then submit his gun for testing. Logically it would no longer "match" the weapon used in the shooting and then, logically, the bad guy would be removed from the suspect list for these shootings.

    Just a thought.
     

    indyjoe

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    Silly question, but if you ran some sandpaper down the inside of your barrel would it dramatically change the 'fingerprint' of the barrel?

    If so, which is what I suspect, then why wouldn't the bad guy simply scratch up the inside of his barrel, then submit his gun for testing. Logically it would no longer "match" the weapon used in the shooting and then, logically, the bad guy would be removed from the suspect list for these shootings.

    Just a thought.

    Actually, a smart criminal would use an aftermarket barrel for the crime and melt that down afterwards and replace it with the stock. Also replace the firing pin. Ta-Da, this test is useless.
     

    bwframe

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    I wonder how specific ballistics testing is? If you took 50 guns of the same manufacturer and caliber, would any two be indistinguishable? Is this science 100% accurate, 80%, 60%, or is it subject to an "experts" opinion?
     

    mrw

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    Just another thought, but I do not believe any State or Local official can view, or ask for the information contained on any Federal Form 4473 without first going through the ATFE. Doesn't the ATF have to do the request and, if I understand it correctly, don't they actually quite a few restrictions on how the records can be accessed?

    Doesn't the State Police in Indiana get a copy of ever 4473?
     

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