1911 Cocked and Unlocked

[clydesdale]

Really? Despite all the cries of dismay, there is no functional difference between carrying a 1911 cocked and manual safety off than there is in carrying a Glock, M&P, or XD chamber loaded. The trigger safety is worthless, the grip safety on the 1911 means no bang without pulling the trigger, trigger pulls are roughly the same, though perhaps slightly shorter on the 1911. The only functional difference is that you can see the cocked hammer on the 1911.

Of course, I dont' carry mine that way. Mine is cocked and locked. I've also gotten to the point, after reading about one negligent discharge after another, that I don't think the Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, etc., should be carried chamber loaded without a manual safety. Too many people can't keep their fingers off the trigger. It only takes a fraction of a second to make a mistake that kills your kid.

i cant tell you how many times i have pulled the trigger on a 1911 without pressing grip safety and the hammer fell much to the dismay of the owner not trying to start a pissing match but is the reason i dont recommend 1911 for ccwi do like 1911(none 45 acp)but not for personal defense carry

 

[GuyRelford]

i cant tell you how many times i have pulled the trigger on a 1911 without pressing grip safety and the hammer fell much to the dismay of the owner not trying to start a pissing match but is the reason i dont recommend 1911 for ccwi do like 1911(none 45 acp)but not for personal defense carry

Really? I have no reason to doubt you and respect your experience, but I have never seen this happen and I've been firing (and training people with)1911s for a long time. Of course, any piece of machinery can malfunction, but I have a huge amount of confidence in the grip safety of any quality 1911. Although, to your point - and possible atacks of hypocracy acknowledged - I ALWAYS carry cocked and locked.

 

[clydesdale]

im glad you carry cocked and locked,hope no one every sees that happen and if it does its on a empty chamber like i have showed,but another reason i dont like a 1911 for defense carry is the single action if your finger is not disciplined could result in discharge that might have been avoidable. i prefer double action for at least first trigger pull.just my two cents

 

[clydesdale]

also the last guy i demonstrated this to was on a springfield been about five years though

 

[aikidoka]

Cocked and locked on my para ordnance warthog. I wouldn't think of carrying it differently.

 

[Kimbertrace]

Cocked and locked. You can set your sights, squeeze the trigger, and then drop the slide safety. It will go bang. Make sure you practice at the range, before you decide to try this.

 

[Shay]

Cocked and locked. You can set your sights, squeeze the trigger, and then drop the slide safety. It will go bang. Make sure you practice at the range, before you decide to try this.

Why would you do this? What advantage does it give over disengaging the safety first and then pulling the trigger?

 

[Kimbertrace]

Why would you do this? What advantage does it give over disengaging the safety first and then pulling the trigger?

The gun is still in safe mode, and you have pressure on the trigger. If I am not mistaking, when shooting a 1911 your thumb should remain on the safety, in case it tries to ride up.

 

[Joe Williams]

The gun is still in safe mode, and you have pressure on the trigger. If I am not mistaking, when shooting a 1911 your thumb should remain on the safety, in case it tries to ride up.

Again, why would you want to do that? If you are putting pressure on the trigger, it should be because you want the gun to fire. If the situation isn't so dire the gun needs to fire immediately, why is your finger on the trigger?

You do know safeties fail, right? Depending on one to keep you from blowing somebody away is not the way to go.

 

[Shay]

The gun is still in safe mode, and you have pressure on the trigger. If I am not mistaking, when shooting a 1911 your thumb should remain on the safety, in case it tries to ride up.

I'm still not following you. Why would you put pressure on the trigger and then deactivate the thumb safety?

 

[jmiller676]

Cocked and locked. You can set your sights, squeeze the trigger, and then drop the slide safety. It will go bang. Make sure you practice at the range, before you decide to try this.

I don't understand either. The trigger is used to drop the hammer not the safety. That is why you should keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot, not keep your finger off the saftey until you're ready to shoot.

 

[BloodEclipse]

Cocked and locked. You can set your sights, squeeze the trigger, and then drop the slide safety. It will go bang. Make sure you practice at the range, before you decide to try this.

I think holding the sights on target while doing this would be much more difficult than removing the safety and then pulling the trigger.

I don't know about the rest of you, but my finger does not go inside the trigger guard until I have sights on target. I'm finding it hard to justify the manual safety.
My gun stays inside my holster unless I need to shoot it or take it out to clean.
I'm not knocking how anyone else carries, I was just wondering what the functional difference was if any?
Again some will say trigger safety and I will remind them that my finger stays off my trigger.

 

[ACT II]

There does exist a significant mechanical difference between a 1911-pattern and an XD, and that's the length of the trigger pull. All else equal, if someone gets their finger on the trigger too soon, it's a lot easier to discharge the 1911 because the trigger pull is significantly shorter (and in most cases) lighter.

Given that, proper use of a 1911-pattern includes depressing the thumb safety as part of the presentation, not as a separate act that requires additional time. There's no good reason to not use and plenty of good reason to use it.

Joseph Viray (aka rhino)
Joseph@AdaptiveConsultingandTraining.com

 

[BloodEclipse]

Given that, proper use of a 1911-pattern includes depressing the thumb safety as part of the presentation, not as a separate act that requires additional time. There's no good reason to not use and plenty of good reason to use it.

Joseph Viray (aka rhino)
Joseph@AdaptiveConsultingandTraining.com

So the depressing of the thumb safety would occur in what part of the presentation?
To make a difference in safety, I would think it would occur as sights were coming to target. That is the same time my finger would be going inside my trigger guard.
If the thumb safety is depressed on the draw, I don't see the point of it.

 

[Chefcook]

WOW I am surprised this thread has survived this long. It seems kinda a mute discussion to me. I see no advantage in carrying a 1911 cocked and UNlocked, I guess you could carry one in this fashion and still do it safely, I just don't see any reason to. A 1911 was the first handgun I was ever trained on at a very young age. The weapon was designed to be carried cocked and locked. When I draw my 1911, I disengage the thumb safety as the weapon is coming out of the holster before my finger can even get to the trigger. This requires no extra time or effort, its simply a matter of conditioning. So I am sorry to say from my point of view what is there to discuss??? That is simply the way it is done. There is no advantage to be gained in carrying it unlocked...

 

[BloodEclipse]

When I draw my 1911, I disengage the thumb safety as the weapon is coming out of the holster before my finger can even get to the trigger. This requires no extra time or effort, its simply a matter of conditioning. So I am sorry to say from my point of view what is there to discuss??? That is simply the way it is done. There is no advantage to be gained in carrying it unlocked...

This is what I am getting at. With 1911s that have a grip safety like mine, I don't see the reason for the thumb safety if you release it as you draw. Your finger can only get to the trigger after it is removed from the holster. So how does having the manual safety on while in the holster benefit those who carry it that way?
I'm not looking to cause grief here, I'm just looking for a logical explanation.

 

[Chefcook]

WOW I am surprised this thread has survived this long. It seems kinda a mute discussion to me. I see no advantage in carrying a 1911 cocked and UNlocked, I guess you could carry one in this fashion and still do it safely, I just don't see any reason to. A 1911 was the first handgun I was ever trained on at a very young age. The weapon was designed to be carried cocked and locked. When I draw my 1911, I disengage the thumb safety as the weapon is coming out of the holster before my finger can even get to the trigger. This requires no extra time or effort, its simply a matter of conditioning. So I am sorry to say from my point of view what is there to discuss??? That is simply the way it is done. There is no advantage to be gained in carrying it unlocked... 1 Hour Ago 01:24

This is what I am getting at. With 1911s that have a grip safety like mine, I don't see the reason for the thumb safety if you release it as you draw. Your finger can only get to the trigger after it is removed from the holster. So how does having the manual safety on while in the holster benefit those who carry it that way?
I'm not looking to cause grief here, I'm just looking for a logical explanation.

I don't know if this will help or not.. But it seems the military wanted an extra measure of safety because it was added just prior to its acceptance by the US armed forces. IMO there is no valid reason not to use it so I have never questioned it. I will take all the safety measures I can so long as they are not a hindrance...

In 1905, Browning and the Colt factory made another step toward meeting the Army's re*quirements with the development of the .45 ACP round. The Model 1905 pistol, made for this new round, was a scaled up version of the Model 1902. When the Army tested this basic design in 1905 and 1907, the results of these tests were finally encouraging enough to generate real interest in a .45 caliber automatic pistol. A formal competition was scheduled, with the promise of a rich contract for the winner. The formal competition drew several other entries, including serious challenges from Luger and Savage Arms. Browning, in turn, continued to introduce refinements to the Colt pistol. A grip safety was added in 1908, followed by a major development in 1909, which brought the pistol to the brink of final success. The two-link system relied upon the slide block key to hold the entire pistol together. If this block should happen to fail, or if a careless shooter should happen to fire the weapon while the block was not in place, the slide could blow off, right into the shooter's face! To solve this potentially deadly hazard Browning devised the single link recoil system. The new configuration replaced the front link with the barrel bushing, which encircled the barrel. The bushing was locked into the front of the slide, and it was held in place by the recoil spring plug. This system resulted in much greater safety and reliability, and the competitive pistols soon fell by the wayside, unable to match the performance of the Colt.

In 1910 the final prototype for the Model 1911 pistol, incorporating the addition of the manual safety lever, was put through an exhaustive test regimen. At one point, six thousand rounds were fired through a single pistol without a single jam or failure. On May 5, 1911 the Colt pistol was officially accepted as the "Automatic Pistol, Calibre .45, Model of 1911."Following its adoption by the Army, the M1911 was also accepted by the Navy and the Marines. It was also adopted by Norway, for use by their armed forces. Supplemental production capacity was set up at Springfield Armory, in order to meet the heavy demand for the pistol. When the United States entered World War I, demand for the pistol was so great that contracts were let out to several other manufacturers. Only Remington/U.M.C. actually went into production, however, before the war ended, resulting in the abrupt cancellation of all outstanding contracts.
In service, the pistol was widely used as a side arm by officers and non-coms, as well as by such specialized units as the Military Police. It won a reputation for ruggedness, reliability and effectiveness, but a few more improvements were still to follow.
It was found that the pistol was somewhat difficult to control, especially in situations which required rapid fire. John Browning collaborated with the engineers at Colt, in what was to be one of the last projects of his lifetime, and the resulting modifications brought about significant improvement, without altering the basic design. In fact, all but one of the modifications involved components which were interchangeable with parts from earlier pistols.

The modifications made to the M1911 are described as follows. The main spring housing was arched and checkered, in order to fit the hand better, with a more secure grip. The grip safety tang was extended, in order to reduce the "bite" of recoil. Beveled cuts were machined into the frame, behind the trigger, in order to provide a more comfortable fit, and the trigger, itself, was cut back and its face was checkered. Finally, the front and rear sights were widened, in order to provide for a clearer sight picture. These changes were all adopted in 1924, and the designation of the pistol was changed to "Model 1911A1."

 

[BloodEclipse]

I don't know if this will help or not.. But it seems the military wanted an extra measure of safety because it was added just prior to its acceptance by the US armed forces. IMO there is no valid reason not to use it so I have never questioned it. I will take all the safety measures I can so long as they are not a hindrance...

Thanks for the history.
Well I think the reason it is there, is explained well above. The military always wants an extra measure of security. They will give anybody a gun.
Many of my shipmates would have been a hazard to themselves and others if they carried a loaded gun. During the 80's we had to stand watch with no magazine inserted(extra safety measure). I certainly don't carry that way or expect anyone who carries for self defense to do so either.
Practically I think it becomes a matter of what you are comfortable with.
For the time being I will still carry cocked and locked.

 

[45-70]

The Conditions of Readiness:
The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the "Condition" system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. The are:
Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
The mode of readiness preferred by the experts is Condition One. Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety. Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don't understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.
Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.
Condition Three adds a degree of "insurance" against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target. This draw is usually called "the Israeli draw" since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.


All that said, I've always carried cocked and locked, condition 1.

 

[Benny]

Really? Despite all the cries of dismay, there is no functional difference between carrying a 1911 cocked and manual safety off than there is in carrying a Glock, M&P, or XD chamber loaded. The trigger safety is worthless, the grip safety on the 1911 means no bang without pulling the trigger, trigger pulls are roughly the same, though perhaps slightly shorter on the 1911. The only functional difference is that you can see the cocked hammer on the 1911.

Of course, I dont' carry mine that way. Mine is cocked and locked. I've also gotten to the point, after reading about one negligent discharge after another, that I don't think the Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, etc., should be carried chamber loaded without a manual safety. Too many people can't keep their fingers off the trigger. It only takes a fraction of a second to make a mistake that kills your kid.

This is basically word for word of what I would have said.